Monday, April 23, 2007

WHY USE SUBUTEX WHEN YOU HAVE SUBOXONE?


Extremely widespread illicit IV use of Subutex in the former Soviet nation of Georgia was recently reported in a German newspaper. The question: since Suboxone is said (rightly or wrongly - we've seen no comparative data to support the theoretical advantage) to be significantly less liable to misuse by injection, and since both preparations are believed (again, with no reported evidence as far as we know) to have equal effectiveness, why is Subutex used at all? There are claims that Subutex is "better" at the start of treatment and perhaps (!) safer in pregnant patients - but if there's supporting evidence, then why doesn't FDA in USA and counterpart agencies elsewhere state unequivocally that Suboxone SHALL be prescribed unless there's a documented rationale for not doing so - and then, for some of us dummies, specify the key reasons for exceptions and the reported evidence on which they are based? Comments welcomed!

(For the record, no one at ICAAT has any relationship with the manufacturer of Subutex or Suboxone and zero interest in advocating the latter, trade-mark protected, formulation.)

28 Comments:

At 5:35 PM, Anonymous frustrated said...

Suboxone has artificial colors AND artificial sweeteners which could conceivably end up causing many patients problems down the road.
I know there are studies which suggest that some artificial sweeteners can cause neurological damage, either short-term or otherwise....
I know the longer I was on it the sicker I felt overall; yet my doctor REFUSED to switch me and I ended up having to stop treatment altogether --- I am still hoping to find ONE doctor who will prescribe the Subutex.

 
At 5:40 PM, Anonymous frustrated said...

Also wanted to add that my intention in taking buprenorphine was not for addiction, but for pain management. I desired to try a new drug, hoping to avoid the typical opiate medication cycle of building tolerance, increasing dosages, having to taper, etc. that becomes so terribly exhausting when one is a chronic pain sufferer.

 
At 5:49 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

For me, after using Suboxone for a couple of years, I began to develop a rash and hives on my thighs. I switched to Subutex and they went away. That was the good side. The bad side is "Why is Subutex more expensive than Suboxone?" More medicine, less cost---go figure.

 
At 4:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am on suboxones right now and i just found out that Im pregnant. Every doc that ive seen says that they have never heard of it. Now i dont know what to do should i switch to subutex or get on the methadone program? can some one help?

 
At 2:32 AM, Anonymous blonde and skinny said...

dear anonomous-
the WORST thing you could possibly do is switch to methadone... it is more addicting than herion, OCs, etc...methadone clinics are a vicious cycle. i shot herion for 2 years went to the clinic and kept upping and upping my dose...i became an even WORSE junkie than i already was. dont go to Na or Rehab. go DETOX.... the place i detoxed was called floridaDetox and it was located in tarpon springs,fl....i have tried everything to get off that damn methadon..its impossible....watch the hbo documentary "methadonia"...its very real...you can do it...if i can do it, anyone can. best of luck to you sweetheart.. much love , cbreez

 
At 11:49 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Blonde & Skinny,
Different strokes for different folks. If approach A works for you, super, terrific, wonderful. If approach B, also super terrific wonderful. But no way in the world do folks who have done well with one approach feel obliged to dump all over others? Do any folks out there truly believe that THEIR solution will work for everyone, and that meanwhile other modalitis that offer help and hope should be damned? A little humility and reality are good things for all of us.

 
At 12:29 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Coming from one who has been down this road, the reason is that subutex is better for the start of the detox period. If you were to give soboxone to someone at the start of detox they would be worse off than having not taken anything, which could cause hospitalization for other issues outside of detox alone. Mostly they will keep you on subutex for a couple weeks and then move you to suboxone for maitenence (sp). Though post patients just quite after the first few weeks of subutex an then transfer to a rehab program if they truly wish to stay clean.

 
At 10:12 PM, Blogger Sheshetta said...

I was severely detoxing from morphine, and was given Subutex for five days, in rehab. It was not the best experience of my life. When I came off the Subutex, I was very sick for one day, and then I was sober. I have been sober ever since. I don't know if I am the only person to ever have experienced this, but it was not pleasant.
sheshetta

 
At 9:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just started taking suboxone 5 days ago and I have the most dreadful headache's but I'm doing okay w/ the cravings! the taste of this is doing a toll on my stomach! I'm having a very hard time to this! I have told my Doc about this and they tell me to take asprin-tylenol-motrin and its not helping! i have read up on the sweeteners and how it can cause neurological damage long term! Im afraid that it is causeing something in my brain to give me these migrans! I have them 24-7 for 4 days! Should I request to swice to Subutex? Im very worried!!

 
At 10:47 PM, Anonymous Steven Sponaugle said...

Subutex does not cause as many allergies as Suboxone.

Almost every migraine patient has unidentified allergies, which can trigger headaches. Fibromyalgia,chronic fatigue, arthritis, ulcerative colitis and Crohns patients also usually have allergies. Many patients with migraines and other chronic disorders can benefit from serum immunoglobin allergy testing, which includes Type III delayed sensitivity and Immunoglobin G testing, in addition to Immunoglobin E testing.

Eliminating allergies can decrease headaches, joint and muscle pain, anxiety, insomnia and many other disorders, which drive addiction.

Patients with severe allergies should request their physician to prescribe dye free and flavor free medications, made by compounding pharmacies.

Chronic pain patients who need continuing opiate medication, can request injectable Buprenex, which has fewer allergens than Subutex or Suboxone.

Chronic pain patients do not appear to develop a tolerance for buprenorphine and require increasingly higher doses, to maintain the same level of pain reduction.

The patent for Buprenorphine will be expiring soon and prices for Suboxone, Subutex and Buprenex may decrease, if generic versions of Buprenorphine medications become available. Another problem with prices for the buprenorphine medications is that the manufacturer,Reckitt Benkiser, does not provide any free samples to physicians. Free samples allow physicians to provide free medications to some patients who are unable to afford them.

Steven Sponaugle
Research Director
Florida Detox
www.floridadetox.com

 
At 9:32 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Steve, you are part of a chain of brilliant, caring, passionate healers @ Fla Detox. Please know that you are not only saving lives, but radically changing the quality of lives as well.God bless you and the heroes at Fla Detox, please dont ever give up.

 
At 3:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Someone wrote of headaches on Suboxone and I experienced the same thing. I spoke to my doctor and was told the Naloxaline(bad spelling)in suboxone was causing me headaches. I was told it does this to some people. He switched me to subutex and the headaches went away. Also i am currently detoxing from subutex as we speak. I have done a slow taper and now take a crumb a day. Very strong strange experience here and i would sugest trying anything you can to stay sober on your own. I would give ANYTHING to go back three years and never to have seen this drug. I don;t really know about short term sub use. But i do know i have been on it for 3 years and it has taken a slow year to taper down to almost nothing. It's only a substitution and the so called miracle this medicine causes just isn't normal. Getting sober takes work and this medicine for myself took the work out of it. Yes life got easier to some extent, but every issue is still here. Yes i did therapy for 2 years straight, but once the meds began wearing off, i'm still me and all the issues remain. Only my experience and i wish you all the best

 
At 5:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've been on suboxone for 1 year now. I've always felt something was wrong. I've had NO motiviation, NO energy, and just generally a negative outlook. ....Yes, you could call it depression. My instincts were telling me that the suboxone was causing this depression, but doctors weren't agreeing with that. And they had me second guessing my instincts. I mean, it makes sense, 5 years of opiate abuse can definitely cause some long-term damage to receptors and other critical brain processes. So they tried prozac, then buspar, then welbutrin. Nohting changed. Finally, I got them to switch me to subutex- Wala!! ...It's magic, I feel like myself again. I understand the science behind the naloxone not getting into your system subligualy, but docs and pharm. reps dong actually take these drugs. SOOOO many things I've been told and/or read about suboxone, subutex, buprenorphine have been innacurate. It's a very unique drug. You've gotta trust your insticts- if you feel the naloxone or artificial additives are causing you headaches, depression, or whatever, push for subutex. As long as you're not an IV risk, they should give it to you. ...Best thing I ever did.

 
At 10:45 PM, Anonymous LoriJean said...

Hey frustrated, where are you located? Just wondering, I live in Pennsylvania, and I had got my doctor to switch me to subutex. I really couldn't stand the taste, or the way it made me feel. My doctor really didn't know what subutex even was. I had been on suboxone before and knew this time if I got on it I would have to suck it up, or get switched to subutex. I talked to the doctor and even printed resources from the internet to take to him, also I went to some forums to show that people are also having problems with it. So then he switched me. I had alot of problems at the last place I went to because they didn't believe that suboxone was giving me headaches, upset stomach and just sick feeling all the time. I think that doctors should really listen to their patients when they are prescribing these types of things, one might not work as well in two different people. I think most Doctors really dont care just because if you are on suboxone and you really want to quit using and it just doesnt make you feel good, your left to deal with it or go back to your old routine. Also who ever came up with the idea that orange was to be the flavor of suboxone, is out of their minds. Ewwwwwwwwww!
Hey frustrated if you go on the subutex website, it gives a list of doctors. I was surprised how many were located around me. So I suggest going on there and finding a Doctor, I think you mind have some luck.

 
At 8:10 AM, Anonymous suboxone clinics said...

You know, the more I read your blog, the more I like it. And I found it from the Atheists & Anger post, so I liked it a whole hell of a lot to begin with.

 
At 4:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I too am looking for a substitute for oxycodone, which works well but eventually I'm up to 14 10mg's per day and it's just too freaking much trouble. The detoxing is horrendous and necessary from time to time as tolerance builds up. I'm on Opana now, but I don't like it at all. It feels icky all day. My doctor just put in for Subutex for me and I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for all the honest testimonies here.

 
At 5:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've been on Suboxone for 4-5 years. For the past year or so I have been so fatigue, and can not figure out why. I had no idea that Suboxone can do this. Does Subutex also cause fatigue? I took Subutex a few years ago for about a year and was never fatigue. Just trying to clarify this.

 
At 1:06 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i dont know how old this post is, but right now its 8-18-2011, i was addicted to roxicodone about 220 mg a day. i decided to switch and start subs 2 months ago. my doctor started me on suboxone... and for about 2 weeks i had fatigue and headaches like crazy. i told my doc this and he switched me to subutex... and like someone wrote on this thread " WALA"!!! felt awesome everything went away.... im good now!

 
At 8:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

just 2 let a couple of the commenters realize something no one enjoys going through detox, severe withdrawl symptons, goose bumps, spiders crawling under your skin,stomic pain vomiting,diarea,etc,etc. But it sounds like everyone is trying to avoid going through the with drawl stage, your going to feel like hammered shit. an by taking methadone, suboxone, subutex, your just prolonging the inevetible.

 
At 12:39 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have ulcerative colitis and have had for 30 years. Constant bloody diarrhea. But whenever I had legitimate medical reason to take oxycodone, the problem would go away. Finally, a doctor decided to try subutex for me. It has been wonderful. I have been able to live and do things like golf and boating and long walks and go to shows thanks to subutex. Now it sounds like they may be getting rid of it. I had previously tried suboxone and it made me itch like crazy, so that's "Why use subutex when you have suboxone" Let's try to save this drug.

 
At 11:41 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Switching from suboxone to subutex was the best choice i ever made. When i was on suboxone i found myself "cheating" and wanting to get high and stopping it for a few days to get high and all that nonsense. Thats not the life I wanted. I switched to subutex and have not gotten high since. Since the tex does not have the nalaxone in it it actually allows you to experience the minor "pleasurable" effect the bupe can give you. it helps me with my depression, motivation, anxiety, ect. I take bupe (subutex) every day now and my life has improved significantly. If you are on suboxone and just dont see the life improvements you expect, make the switch. Just try it.

 
At 6:21 PM, Blogger mike said...

I am getting off of heroine, and i bought 6 8gm subutex off the street. I took a whole subutex 12+ hours since my last relapse, the pill did almost nothing to help me and I was having terrible withdrawl symptoms. Why didnt it work? is there a better method on taking the pill? I let it dissolve under my tongue and still for hours ive been withdrawing. what should I do?

 
At 11:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

chandup the doseage. normal is 16 a day...i have seen as high as 6. up the doseage. doit carefully

 
At 3:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have tried both suboxone & subutex.First of all I have so far read people say subutex is more expensive than suboxone.No it' not.Subutex is about five dollars a pill and I believe suboxone is double that in price.My choice is subutex so far because it's taken away my pain and has been a miracle drug for me.I have so much more energy on subutx that I'm still amazed.Anyway what's good for one may not be for another.I plan on staying on subutex for years.It works for my pain and that alone is worth it.Good luck

 
At 7:03 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds like you experienced precipitated withdraw. Thats what happens when you take the sub too soon after using opiates. Next time wait atleast 24 hrs before you take the sub. You must already be in withdrawal for it to work. I am speaking from 7 yrs experience w subs and ten yrs of opiates.

 
At 7:13 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Either wait for precipitated withdrawal to subside then take more sub or if it's too intense you can always overide it with a dose of Pretty pure H or a large dose of subs, like three or four 8mgs. Good luck. I have been thru it before and I just had to ride it out for like 24 hrs...then take the sub everyday. Listen to some Heavy metal that always helps me. Music of any kind will help....

 
At 11:20 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was having flu like symptoms and my joints ached horrible. My ankles swelled up like balloons. We switched to subutex and it all went away. That naloxone is some nasty stuff.

 
At 10:46 AM, Anonymous bro said...

Subutex is for the beginning of treatment. When exposure to naloxone would throw patient into precipitated withdraw. Once patient is into the withdraw off of opiates suboxone with naloxone can be used without risk of precipitated withdrawal. In basic terms, suboxone has naloxone and subutex does not.

 

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